A Private Conversation Reflecting "A Bible Study On Wealth"

James and Francis are brothers, discussing the use of their wealth. Rosette is James’ wife, and Maria is Francis’ wife who originally came from Mexico. James presented Francis the chapter above on A Position on Wealth. Chuck is a lawyer who is observing the conversation.

Francis: (Glancing it over) Well, I’m impressed…

James: I can’t take credit for any of it. Pastor Melrose wrote this out. My gifting is accounting, not Bible teaching. But I did go over all of this and I think I can defend it, if I have to.

Francis: Okay. Let’s go over it, then. (Pulls out a pen.) Is it okay if I scribble on this?

James: Of course, it’s yours.

Francis: Great.

James: Okay, let me read over it quickly. (He glances at the women and Chuck.) If any of you have any questions about this, just let me know, okay?

Chuck nods. Maria shrugs.

Rosette: Whatever. I don’t know we’ll have anything to say.

James: You might. I’m just opening it up.

Rosette: Okay.

James: Great. Okay, let’s go over the first part. The Bible is clear that some people can be rich, while others are poor. There isn’t an exaltation in poverty in Scripture, nor is there a condemnation of the rich…

Francis: (Hesitant) Uh, excuse me?

James: Uh, yes?

Francis: I have to take exception to that statement.

James: Okay. But... perhaps if you could wait until I finish this first section at least? Then I’ll take a break and you can share your side.

Francis: That’s fine with me. I’ll just write down what I wanted to say and bring it up later. (Francis reaches for his Bible and opens it, looking for a passage.)

James: Thanks. (Looks at paper again.) As you can see, there are some great men of God who were rich—Abraham, Isaac, Job, Joseph of Aramathea and more. Also, there were rich people in both Israel and in the church who were fully accepted. The Lord makes some people rich, so it must be acceptable. And also, Proverbs gives some tips on how to gain wealth and be rich, so it must be okay to obtain wealth, right? Uh… I guess that’s all I have to say about that section. I must not be a preacher because I don’t go on and on, right?

(All laugh. Maria laughs louder than the others, then is embarrassed at her faux pas.)

Francis: Bien. Can I share a couple things now?

James: Go for it.

Francis: I’m not really disputing anything you just said. But I would like to offer a couple clarifications.

James: Uh huh.

Francis: First of all, the remark you made at the beginning, that the Bible never exalts the poor or condemns the rich. I don’t think your pastor would say that statement without qualification, because there are some passages that definitely lean that way. I’m not judging you, Jim, because, as you said, you’re not a Bible scholar. Let me give you a few passages that seem to indicate that the poor are exalted and the rich are condemned. In Luke 6:20 Jesus says, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of heaven.” On the other hand, verse 24 says, “Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.” James 2:5 says, “Isn’t it the poor of this world that God has made rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom which he promised those who love him?” On the other hand, James 5:1 says, “Weep and howl, you rich, for the miseries that are coming upon you.” And also I Samuel 2 says, “The bows of the mighty ones are shattered, but those who stumble gird on strength... Yahweh makes some poor and others rich. He lowers some, and exalts others. The poor he raises from the dust. The needy he lifts up from shit….” Oops, sorry. That’s a personal translation. The standard translation is “He lifts the needy from the ash heap.” There are other passages like this, but you get the idea.

James: So how do you put these two ideas together? Obviously the Bible doesn’t condemn the rich in some places, but in others, as you say, it condemns the rich—although I have to admit, if you are using your own translations, I don’t know if I can trust you.

Francis: You can look them up yourself, if you like. Even use the King James. They all say the same thing.

James: Even so, how do you put this together?

Francis: Fundamentally, it comes down to generosity. The examples of rich men you mentioned are very good, actually. Job says of himself, “I was father to the needy… I delivered the poor and the orphan.…” This is in chapter 29, as Job is defending his righteousness. Abraham, in Genesis 18, bowed himself before total strangers, begging them to take a meal with him, simply because they were passing by. Zaccheus was commended as an inheritor of God’s kingdom because of two practices—he gave half of his possessions to the poor and because he repaid anyone he cheated four times as much. These were all men of generosity. There are other rich people in the Bible who were commended—all for their generosity to the poor. Cornelius, Tabitha and Barnabas in Acts, specifically. On the other hand there are other rich people who are condemned because of their lack of giving. Nabal, for instance, in I Samuel 25. In James 5, that I just read the first part, the rich are condemned because they were hoarding—not giving to the poor. On the other hand, in I Timothy 6, that Pastor Melrose mentions, Paul tells Timothy to command the rich to be generous, giving of their wealth, so they might make a savings of true life. So the difference seems to be between generous wealthy people and not-generous.

Rosette: So, you’re saying that the Bible condemns rich people in general, but not those who are generous to others?

Francis: It seems that the Bible often assumes that rich people will spend the money on themselves, instead of being generous. This is why at times the rich are condemned in general. But the Bible supports the wealthy who are radically generous or hospitable.

Rosette: Interesting…

James: (Clearing his throat) Actually, as you see, there are some cautions about wealth on the paper I handed out.

Francis: Yes, let’s go over that.

James: Okay. This part is cautions about using wealth. We shouldn’t use wealth ever for the sake of evil, such as oppressing others. Also, we have to be careful in gaining our wealth, not getting involved in get-rich-quick schemes or being greedy for more. Also, if we have wealth, we can’t be conceited, thinking that we are better than other people because we have money.

Francis: I certainly can’t disagree with that.

James: I didn’t think so.

Francis: However, I do have a comment…

James: (Curious) What’s that?

Francis: I just wanted to point out that almost everyone I know who has wealth trips up on almost every one of these areas. Let’s just talk about everyday things. It is becoming more commonly known that because of the extensive purchases of coffee, bananas and chocolate in the U.S., that many are being oppressed in Central and South America and Africa—even to the point of the slavery of children. And yet we continue to purchase these items because we are able to and they are even staples of our diet.

James: There’s nothing wrong with drinking coffee or eating bananas.

Francis: But if these every day items cause us to participate in the oppression of others, and we know that, aren’t we responsible? Aren’t we using our wealth for the sake of oppression, just like what your pastor wrote down here?

James: I’m not so sure about that…

Francis: Secondly, how many wealthy people do you know have “enough?” Don’t they always want more? That is greed for more wealth, the very concern Jesus and Paul had about the wealthy. We see that greed especially in the desire to see taxes cut so more money could go into one’s own pockets.

James: Look, the government shouldn’t be stealing from us to use themselves. We work hard for our money!

Francis: But when the government gives money back, in the form of rebates, what does that money get used for? Didn’t the government recently give $300 back to every wealthy person in America?

James: I wouldn’t exactly call most of those who received that wealthy…

Francis: Those under the poverty line in the U.S. who didn’t receive a cent of that money certainly would call them wealthy. Anyway… that doesn’t matter. What is important is what the money got used for—how many Christians used the money for their own expenses and how many gave it away to those in need? This was extra money—money no one expected would come. How many used it toward their own greed and how many used it toward needs?

James: I think you are overstepping your bounds here…

Francis: Then since I’m already in trouble, let me say one more thing. The last area you mentioned is that of being conceited. The wealthy are certainly conceited. Almost all of them. How many wealthy people think that those who don’t have jobs like theirs or who have insurance like theirs or who don’t have all the privileges for their families like the wealthy are in some way on a lower status. There are many churches today that teach that unless you are wealthy, then you lack spiritual strength—even though the Scripture says the opposite! How many wealthy people look down on those who need help, telling them to “get a job” without understanding the life situation they are in? The conceit is tremendous!

James: (Angry, but trying to hold it in) You really hate rich people, don’t you?

Francis: (Gentle) No. Not at all. All I’m trying to do here is to show that even your pastor has biblically condemned the far majority of the wealthy. I could say more, but what he has said is sufficient, for now.

James: Chuck, I don’t know if I can even talk to him! The things he is saying…

Chuck: (Calm) Finish the discussion, James. Come to some kind of conclusion.

Rosette: It’s okay, James. He’s just expressing his opinion. Isn’t that okay?

James: But he is deliberately trying to goad me! Every word he says is condemning me!

Francis: I’m not trying to condemn you. I’m trying to put modern reality in the context of what the Bible says, even as your pastor says. I’m not thinking of anyone in particular. I’m pointing out the evil in the system itself. It is very difficult for anyone in the United States to escape the evil inherent in the system.

James: What evil?

Francis: What your pastor pointed out: oppression, greed and conceit among the wealthy.

(Silence for a moment.)

Francis: Why don’t you go on, James? Read the next section.

James: Why? So you can condemn me some more?

Francis: I hope not.

James: I don’t know how you expect us to talk… (Exits room.)

Rosette: (Sighs) He’ll be back.

Maria: (To Francis) Don’t you think you pushed him a little hard?

Francis: I’m not trying to get him mad, Maria. But I came here to tell the truth. And that’s what I will do, even if it hurts.

Maria: Do you not need to speak truth in love?

Francis: Tell me when I was not gentle. I said nothing pointed or condemning or rude. Yes, it hurts, and I’m sorry about that.

(Everyone is silent for a moment, waiting for James to return)

James: (Returning) Okay. (Sits down.) Frank, I’m going to try to remain calm no matter what you say.

Francis: I don’t want to upset you. I just want to discuss the issues clearly.

James: All right. Well, let’s just stop the arguing, then. Let me finish giving my position. And then you can give yours.

Francis: Then you don’t want me to comment on your position?

James: You can ask questions of clarification, but that’s all. You’ll have your turn when I’m done.

Francis: Whatever you say.

James: All right, then. Let me go over the next section. Actually, let me explain a bit. My pastor says that many people, especially the Catholics, have a misunderstanding about wealth—that it is fundamentally evil. He says that it comes from a misunderstanding of this passage, Mark 10, about the rich young ruler. Actually, Francis, if you could read that section out loud, as listed here on the sheet.

Francis: (Flipping pages in his Bible) Just up to verse twenty-seven?

James: That’s what it says.

Francis: Okay… This is the New American Standard, by the way. “As He”—meaning Jesus— “was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

James: Thank you, Frank. On the surface, it seems that Jesus is condemning the rich to barely, if at all, gaining salvation. However, my pastor says, that in the context, Jesus is speaking about the impossibility of anyone coming to heaven on his or her own works. Jesus gives the young man a list of works to do, which almost everyone has already broken. This man is righteous in his own eyes, so Jesus gives him additional requirements that he could not fulfill and then—and this is the clincher—Jesus calls him to himself which will actually give him salvation. But the man stumbled at the law, wanting to be righteous by that and not by the death of Jesus. So he rejected Jesus’ call. Then Jesus decided to test the disciples, to see what they would say, by claiming that it is very difficult for the rich to enter heaven. The disciples responded rightly, by saying, “If the rich can’t be saved, who can?” And Jesus said that no one can be saved in the way of works, but only by the grace of God.

Francis: Well, that’s one point of view.

James: Don’t you see, Frank? This is our major disagreement. You want to say that our salvation is based on works—that if we do this or don’t do that we will be saved. But Jesus himself took us beyond that! He wanted us to see that his death was the only way we can be saved. That even while we remain sinners, in this life, Jesus will redeem us through his righteousness. We aren’t saved by being poor, Frank. We aren’t saved because we give our riches to the poor or whoever else. We are saved by God’s grace through the death of his Son.

Francis: You’re done?

James: Uh, yeah.

Francis: I can ask a couple questions?

James: To help you understand where I’m coming from. You’ll have your turn in a bit.

Francis: Okay. How are we saved?

James: By grace through faith.

Francis: And what is faith?

James: Believing in Jesus, whom God sent.

Francis: And where did Jesus tell the rich man to believe in him?

James: Umm... when he told him to “follow me.”

Francis: So, following Jesus is the same as believing in him?

James: Yes.

Francis: Okay, I just wanted that clarified.

Maria: Can I ask a question?

James: Of course.

Maria: Are you saying that a person can believe and they are saved?

James: Yes.

Maria: Is believing saying “Jesus is Lord”?

James: It says, “If anyone believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead.” So the believing is in the heart.

Francis: That passage is Romans 10:9-10. Doesn’t that whole passage say, “Whoever confesses with his mouth that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead is saved” ?

James: Uh, yeah. So that means that believing is both in the heart and speaking with the mouth. But whatever comes out of the mouth begins in the heart, so believing in the heart is what is most important.

Maria: So anyone who believes in his heart is saved?

James: Yes.

Maria: What about people who steal? If they believe in their heart, are they saved?

James: Yes. Of course they would have to stop stealing, even as Paul said…

Maria: Isn’t that a “work”?

James: What do you mean?

Maria: If a person is saved by faith, not any “work”, is not stopping to steal a “work”?

James: Well, it would be a natural outflow of one’s faith… I think.

Maria: What about a homosexual?

James: What about them?

Maria: If a homosexual believes in his heart, is he saved?

James: Yes, but he would certainly have to stop being a homosexual…

Maria: And that is not a “work”?

James: That would just be a result of his faith.

Maria: So what about a greedy person?

James: What do you mean?

Maria: If a greedy person believes in his heart, is he saved?

James: Yes.

Maria: He will have to stop being greedy?

James: Well, he would have to… well… I mean… a miser couldn’t keep his money. I guess it depends on what you mean by “greedy.”

Maria: What if a believer knows that another believer is in need and they refuse to give them from their abundant resources?

James: Well, I guess it depends…

Maria: Depends?

James: Well, yes. It depends on if they were responsible with their money. And if they were in their circumstance because of sin.

Maria: So you justify greed because if the circumstances that are not in the Bible are there, then you can be greedy?

Francis: Maria, I don’t think—

James: Hold on, Frank. Let me answer. Maria, you haven’t really answered my question. What do you mean by greedy?

Maria: Greedy is knowing my cousins—who have been in the church for twenty years—are slowly starving because of drought three years in a row and my father-in-law and brother-in-law won’t send a penny to help them although if they sold their CD collections they could feed them for a year.

Francis: Maria, James was already feeling attacked…

James: Look, Maria, you don’t know the circumstances we live under either. My financial outlook is really tight. I can’t just up and give money to anyone. I don’t even know your cousins.

Maria: Did you read our newsletter?

James: Yes. Most of the time.

Rosette: (To herself, in a quiet voice) I thought we should have helped…

Maria: So you knew the circumstance. You knew the need. You knew we didn’t have enough. Why didn’t you help? How often did you give to Focus on the Family?

Francis: (Placing his hand on Maria’s arm) James, you said you wanted to finish your paper. Why don’t you go on.

James: (Controlling himself) Yeah. Let me go on.

Maria: (Flushed, distraught) Go.

James: (Looking at paper, without looking up) Okay, this is the most important part. The Bible, and especially Jesus, speaks of the man who has wealth as a steward who is given money as a resource to use under the observation of his master. This means that the steward has to be faithful to his master to be responsible with that wealth. (Warming up to his subject.) This means that he needs to use the money rightly—he can’t just give it to anyone for any reason, even if it is good. First of all, out of one’s income there has to be taken a tithe which is given to the local church body—not to other organizations, no matter how good they are. They need to support the pastor and the church that they attend. After that, there can be money for other things, if the steward so desires. Then, in the parable of the talents, it is shown clearly that the money a wealthy person has is to be given to investments which will increase the money, which should be used for the building of the kingdom of God.

Francis: Ummm…

James: This means that the surplus is used for that, not necessarily the principle. The principle should be used for increasing the wealth, so that the kingdom of God can continue to grow for years to come—not just in one shot. But this is surplus wealth. With the basic money one has, it needs to go to for one’s needs and the needs of one’s family. This can be very expensive in and of itself, as you well know. The pastor of the local church needs to be provided for especially, as well. Of course, the money can’t be used for evil. But this last point is most important: If the one who received wealth from the Lord does not use it appropriately, then he will lose his reward on the last day—that’s also in the parable of the talents. This means that if the one who has wealth does not use it for the building of the kingdom of God or if they do not increase the wealth, then they will have their rewards taken away from them.

Francis: Interesting. I can see that you and your pastor went through quite a bit of work.

James: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, Pastor Melrose did the work on his own—I don’t know how much work he actually put into it. But he did take time to go over it all with me and answer my questions. I guess there is quite a bit of work in this.

Francis: Impressive.

James: Did you have any questions of clarification on that last section?

Francis: I do have one question—did Jesus give his disciples wealth?

James: What do you mean?

Francis: I mean, did Jesus give his disciples money? Or possessions or land?

James: Not… that I know of.

Francis: Okay, that’s all I needed to ask.

James: (Looking sidelong at Francis, but addressing them all) Anyone else?

Rosette: James, I don’t think I really understood this before.

James: I have to admit, I didn’t understand it until just recently.

Rosette: So Scripture says that we have to invest money, or else our reward is taken away?

James: That seems to be what it says. Frank, could you read us the end of the parable of the talents, please?

Francis: That’d be Matthew 25. (Turning the pages of his Bible.)

James: Or it could be in Luke.

Francis: Then you’d call it the “Parable of the Minas”, because the mina is the unit of money used there.

James: Whatever.

Francis: Got it. “But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' or to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

James: That’s pretty strong.

Rosette: I’d say so.

Francis: Are you done with your presentation, Jim?

James: Yeah. I covered the paper. (Sighs slightly.) You can respond.

Francis: Well, let’s start right here with the passage I just read. I want you to notice that last line I just read. It’s pretty strong, like you said. Jesus uses the phrase a number of times. In Matthew 8, he uses it to speak about those who are cast out of the kingdom of God. In Matthew 22, it is used for the servant who was inadequately clothed for the wedding feast, and so he was thrown out. In Luke 13, Jesus used the phrase to speak about the teachers of the law who would be thrown out of the kingdom of God. These indicate that when Jesus used the phrase “outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” that he is speaking of those who ought to be in the kingdom, but for whatever reason, he is thrown out. This means that this parable isn’t about losing one’s rewards. It’s about not being able to enter the kingdom—receiving hell instead of heaven. Don’t you think that is pretty strong of Jesus to say that we would go to hell if we don’t increase our money?

James: I don’t think that he would really say that…

Francis: That’s what he would be saying, if we go with the interpretation of your pastor.

James: I thought it was a pretty straightforward interpretation. What would you say about it, then?

Francis: Well, it relates to the question I asked you. Did Jesus give the disciples any money—any earthly wealth of any kind? Who is the master in the parable? In Luke 19, the other place this parable shows up, the master is going to another land to receive a kingdom. The master, therefore is Jesus. The slaves, on the other hand, are the disciples. This isn’t unusual for Jesus to call the disciples slaves—they were probably used to the language and it didn’t offend them. At least, if it did, then nothing about it was recorded. And the master, in the parable, gave the slaves—the disciples—some money. But did Jesus ever give money to the disciples? No, he never did. This means that the gift must be something else. What could it be? The best possibility is that it is his teaching.

James: Couldn’t it be his death?

Francis: That is something he gave them. However, what would the disciples do to increase his death? Die themselves? I mean, that happened, but is that the best possibility here? The most likely interpretation is that Jesus gave his teaching to them and they are to increase that. But one thing is certain, the parable is not speaking about money.

Rosette: How could they increase his teaching?

Francis: Possibly by teaching others what he taught. That is spoken of in Matthew 28, at the end of the gospel. But more likely it is speaking about obedience.

James: Wait a minute. Are you saying, then, that the “wicked” servant was thrown into hell for disobeying Jesus?

Francis: That’s right.

James: Then we would all be going to hell. Frank, it’s just like I said. You believe in works-righteousness. I believe in grace.

Francis: What do you mean by “works”?

James: Thinking that we can enter heaven by doing this or that. The Scripture says that we are all sinners and that we all deserve hell. The death of Jesus covers our sin and allows us into heaven, even though we do not deserve it. Jesus freed us from all codes of legalism, so we are free to live under him. It doesn’t matter what we do, we are forgiven by God’s grace alone.

Francis: I agree that we are all sinners, and that we all deserve hell. And, of course, I agree that Jesus died to cleanse us from the consequence of sin, so that we can receive forgiveness. However, it doesn’t just stop with that. The scripture makes it clear—anyone who continues to sin will die, even if that sin is after they become a believer. Look at I Corinthians 6. Paul was speaking to the Corinthians to exclude a believer who was involved in sexual immorality from the fellowship. Why? Because, he said, those who persist in sin will not enter the kingdom of God. But the clearest example is Hebrews 10. It says, “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Rosette: Wow. I’ve never heard that before.

Francis: If we continue in sin, we will be under more severe judgment, because we had the possibility of living before God. Jesus’ death made that possible. But if we persist in our sin despite his death, then we have spit in the face of Jesus. He died to free us from sin, not to give us a façade to hide behind.

James: But it says in Scripture that we are covered by Jesus’ death. That we are clothed in him. That God doesn’t see us, just Jesus.

Francis: It does say that we are clothed in Christ. That just indicates the life that we should live, not just our standing before God. The thing about the theology of Luther, and most evangelical theology, that I just don’t get is, why they think God is so weak?

James: So weak? Of course not. We all think that God alone, by himself , can give us salvation. That places him in the highest place. It’s you who think he is weak, that Jesus’ death doesn’t fully cover our sins.

Francis: But you turn right around and say that God can’t make a believer in Jesus truly free from sin. That Jesus’ death is adequate for a “covering”, but inadequate to really take our sins away from us. You think it is some legal fiction, a façade that God covers you with so he doesn’t have to see your sin. That isn’t the Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ God takes sin so seriously that Jesus had to die on the cross. Jesus’ God still takes sin so seriously that if anyone persists in sin, they cannot enter the kingdom of God. Rather, God gives us strength to overcome sin in our lives. Paul said that Jesus died to deliver us from the hand of the powers that held us in bondage, including Satan and our own flesh. This means that we don’t have to sin anymore. Rather, we can walk in the life of Jesus. This is what it means to be clothed in Jesus.

James: I’m not sure. I just can’t accept what you’re saying. This doesn’t sound like it’s from the Scripture to me.